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Paganism/New Age vs. Christianity Reconciliation or Fight?
Written by Jon   
A facebook debate that got a bit esoteric...ridiculous and strange.

AC
12:29pm Jan 16th
Reply

Morning chaps - i've been researching mysticism and spiritualism this morning because as you know, i'm a great fan. You're all subscribers to these beliefs, so i wanted to start a conversation about it to make sure i have all the facts. It's been very difficult to find a definition but through about 20 or so mainstream sites i've been able to cobble together a compact list.

I'd like to ask you questions about these beliefs and see how much i've left out. I'm not looking for an argument, just to listen and confirm what these beliefs are and what they are based on. Stella and i have kicked things off, but the more the merrier. I need a generalised definition for the group and types of people who subscribe rather than personal combinations.

So here we go - would you say this list is accurate?

Teleology
-------------------------------------------------
* Belief in synchronicity. A belief that coincidences have a spiritual meaning, and contain spiritual lessons to teach those that are open to them.
* Everything is universally connected through God, participating in the same energy
* There is a cosmic goal and a belief that all entities are (willingly or unwillingly) cooperating towards this goal

Spiritual versus scientific knowledge
-------------------------------------------------
* Intuition is a more appropriate guide than rationalism, scientific skepticism or the scientific method
* Spiritual beings (e.g. angels, ascended masters, elementals, ghosts, and/or space aliens) exist and will guide us, if we open ourselves to their guidance.
* There exists a common core within all religions which renders dogma and religious identity irrelevant. Rejection of tradition and dogma.
* Feminine forms of spirituality, including feminine images of the divine, such as the female Aeon Sophia in Gnosticism and Dana in Wicca, are deprecated by patriarchal religions.
* An appeal to the language of nature and mathematics, as evidenced by numerology, Kabbala, Sacred Geometry and gnosticism to discern the nature of God.
* Ancient civilizations such as Atlantis existed and left behind relics and monuments such as the Great Pyramid and Stonehenge, whose true nature has not been discovered by mainstream historians.
* Certain geographic locations emanate psychic energy, and such places were considered sacred in religions throughout the world.
* Western science neglects parapsychology, meditation, and holistic health to its detriment.
* Science and spirituality are ultimately harmonious. New discoveries in science, e.g. evolution and quantum mechanics, when rightly understood, point to spiritual principles.

Human potential
-------------------------------------------------
* The human mind has much greater potential than that ascribed to it, and is capable of overriding physical reality;the ultimate level of human potential has only been realised by a few spiritual masters
* Humans have a responsibility to take part in positive creative activity and to work to heal ourselves, each other and the planet
* Meditation, yoga, t'ai chi ch'üan, Qi Gong, reiki, and other Eastern practices can assist in realizing one’s potential
* Humans have potential healing powers (such as therapeutic touch) which can be developed to heal others through touch or at a distance
* Relativist approach to truth - one truth but many paths

Miscellaneous
-------------------------------------------------
* Consciousness persists after death as life in different forms; the afterlife exists for further learning through reincarnation and/or near-death experiences.
* Rocks and crystals have psychic energies that can aid meditation and healing.
* Dreams and psychic experiences are spiritually meaningful.
* Fairies live in nature or gardens, are generally described as human in appearance and having magical powers. Some New Age Wiccans use fairy magic for inspiration and healing.

SF
12:46pm Jan 16th
Reply

I'll put some thought into this later, though, I have to say, the most important aspect of belief for me is personal experience closely followed by the refusal to sacrifice personal integrity.


JM
12:47pm Jan 16th

don't forget the trolls and pixies!

hehehe - and thus it continues....

paganism overstates feminine 'God' power just as Christianity overstates masculine 'Dog' power...

Generate
Organise
Destroy

will puke up some more crap for you later - have a lovely mass debate folks...

DM
1:05pm Jan 16th
Reply

The Chaos Theory is worth looking in to

AC
1:15pm Jan 16th
Reply

Cool - thanks. What i'm ultimately looking for is a statement of beliefs, rather than opinions so no need to do any explaining. "New Age" is a very broad term that encompasses a lot of things (energy, spirits, power, forces etc). That list needs to be as definitive as it can get whilst remaining general, so if i've missed anything or it's glaringly wrong, do point it out.

One rule though - answers need to be specific, to the point, free of abstract jargon/spiel and no more than 2 sentences.

Some questions that i sent over to stella earlier:

God - who is He/She/It, what is He/She/It like and how do we communicate with him/her/it?
"the earthly plane" and "tools" - what are these?
What is "personal truth"? Is truth an absolute or is it relative?
Which specific parts of Quantum physics (references please)?
"a result that cannot be attainable in the third dimension" - what on earth does this mean, and what are the other "dimensions"?
"reality is completely subjective" - what is the reasoning behind this exactly, if any?
"the law of physics" - which laws, specifically (references please)?
What is "one's alchemy"?
44 laws - what is the source of this, and what makes them "laws"?
How does the tarot mirror what you feel? What is the process behind it?
"Others that have passed over" to where exactly?
"every energetic output is now measurable" - what is the scientific reference?

Also....

Where does evolution and natural selection fit into New Age beliefs?
How did the planet and the universe come to exist?
What of the concept of evil and human nature?
At what point do psychological theories become spiritual (e.g. Jung's synchronicity, personality profiling etc)?
How do you tell whether a psychic/medium/atrologer is a blatant fraud or they are tapping into "genuine energy" (or whatever)?
Is schizophrenia an example of creating and experiencing your own reality subjectively?
Is homeopathy "spiritual" and if so, why?
If science is irrelevant/foolish/basic, why do new agers use it to back up their beliefs (e.g. quantum physics)?
Do we have free will, or is everything destined?

Chaos theory - i have 4 books on the subject and have studied it since i was at college. Which parts of it, specifically?

DM
1:20pm Jan 16th
Reply

Why specify?

Kelly-Marie Saunders
1:31pm Jan 16th
Reply

am undecided personally which side of the fence i sit on if at all. Rather than jump on a religious bandwagon i think i will take my time and see what i believe in my heart rather than something that has to be explained. Your each fighting for you religion. If u truly believe it, then it doesn't need to be explained.
Sent via Facebook Mobile

DM
1:32pm Jan 16th
Reply

Good point, well made.

AC
1:53pm Jan 16th
Reply

why specify? its worrying you actually ask that in the first plac, the reason is very simple - because if you don't, it is meaningless and irrelevant.

plus baby - this isn't an argument about whose religion is right, i just would like these beliefs listed out to see if i have them correct. There is no need to justify, but a basis for it is important.

DM
1:54pm Jan 16th
Reply

Why specify? Because I believe you translate the Chaos Theory to your own life in your own personal way.


DM
2:39pm Jan 16th
Reply

And I don't think everything in life needs an explanation

JM
4:00pm Jan 16th

Trying to turn new agist philosophy and old paganistic thought (most of which if you recall zeitgeist xtianity ripped off anyhoo) is a complete waste of time.

It's the broadest school of religious thought out there. To codify it into one set of beliefs makes an unfair strawman for others to attack.

This debate is far too wide and incorrectly framed and will result in a clusterfuck of crap,

Furthermore, instead of having this closed little facebook gangbang, why not take it over to textualecstasy forums - where it will add interest, content and spark wider debate?

SF
4:13pm Jan 16th
Reply

Good idea John, also perhaps set up a group Alex and get all and sundry to add in their own collective truths/views/beliefs. You could start by putting a topic out there on my "Truth, like it is", group. All new-agers on there (god I hate that term, the stuff I do is ancient, nothing new about it!) It's too broad and i'm already exhausted trying to answer some of your questions. It's taken me 38 years to fine tune these beliefs and personal experiences and I think when I write it all down it will be, in fact, my memoirs!

x

I particularly like this scientific explanation. It just goes to show that everyone's truth is in fact different, if only by a millisecond! Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wteiuxyqtoM&mode=related&search=



Simultaneity - Albert Einstein and the Theory of Relativity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Imagine two observers, one seated in the center of a speeding train car, and another standing on the platform as the train races by. As the center of the car passes the observer on the platform, he sees two bolts of lightning strike the car - one on the front, and one on the rear. ...


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AC
4:34pm Jan 16th
Reply

Chaos theory is traditional science, and *not* translated personally (you can't translate gravity personally either), so i can't include that as a belief. The other issue is that mysticism indicates order (energy systems etc), whereas chaos is about the opposite: disorder. Which one is it? If "don't know" is the answer, that's totally cool.

You need to specify for the same reason that you'd ask a GP to tell you the exact issue if he/she was reading you blood test results that indicated there was a problem. Imagine if they replied with "why specify? I think you interpret blood test results in your own way".

And no, we are definitely *not* going to be treating this a broad school of thought, as it's not. What is needed here are specific general principles that make up the "new age" belief system. It is accountable as all other systems are, and it's not wide (that is diversion and evasion). New age beliefs are underpinned by central concepts - energy, spirit, force etc - and that is what we're looking at here. What are the common and core ideas?

Here's the template for the question i am asking, and no more.

What do you believe, and why?

e.g. "I believe that London buses are painted red, as that is published local government policy and every bus i have seen in London is red."

You don't need to add anything else or justify it. Just to state your beliefs and what they are based on.

DM
4:41pm Jan 16th
Reply

I don't believe in a god or a set of rules with which we are supposed to live our lives. I do believe that there is a higher purpose and that we don't just live and die and that's it. I am still developing many of my own theories about life right now.

I've had many people ask me about the Chaos Theory and asked me to pinpoint what parts appeal. I like the concept of your actions impacting you tweaking the reactions. I know that's a strange way of describing it but that's my take. Everything has a take.

I don't believe in Christianity and as Ghandi described the western civilisation as 'a wonderful idea', I believe religion is a good idea but ruined in practice.

SF
4:57pm Jan 16th
Reply

It's too personal and I'm a little gun shy after yesterdays blog mate! ;) I'll work with you on a few things, but some of my answers are going to seem completely and utterly ridiculous to others who haven't shared my life experience!

AC
6:02pm Jan 16th
Reply

Debs - that's great. Could you (briefly and concisely) elaborate on what this higher purpose is? Also i have to admit i have no idea what this means: "the concept of your actions impacting you tweaking the reactions".

Stel - no need to divulge personal experiences or intimate details, just the discovery/understanding about life/the universe etc it has led to, i.e. what you believe as a result.

Cheers guys - will start a thread on John's site later.

SF
9:57pm Jan 16th
Reply

OK, here's the gospel according to Stel, for Stel. I must begin with I don't believe this stuff or even "know" this stuff because I've read it somewhere, it's completely personal to me and my life experience. Please bear that in mind when reading, ridiculing, as you will and having empathy, I hope, with my journey called life, so far. :) If you rip this apart, you rip my life apart, so be gentle with your views, differences and tread lightly with your contradictions. This is my "God" experience on a sample of one.

Alex I have to divulge personal experiences to make this real for everyone. A lot of my beliefs are really knowings. If I truly know something that I cannot explain physically or back it up with any evidence I just know it and it's real for me. And I don't mean magical thinking, fallacy or fantasy, it just is. That's why this exercise is very, very difficult to articulate well or back up. Sod it, i've gone intimate with all of this! And I'm wiki'ing like never before!

1.God - who is He/She/It, what is He/She/It like and how do we communicate with him/her/it?

God is energy, it's asexual but can at times be interpreted as male or female, (Yin/yang) it is everything we experience, cannot be created or destroyed and moves into, through and out of form in all dimensions. The way i communicate with that energy is prayer and meditation. Prayer is asking the questions, asking for guidance and meditating is listening for the answer. All done with the highest integrity and for the highest good or divine order/God's will.



2. What is "personal truth"? Is truth an absolute or is it relative?

Personal truth for me, is the truth that resonates with a feeling of any kind. It's relative. It also is confirmed by life experiences, but not necessarily in the 3rd dimension. I can have these personal truths show up when I meditate, sleep, dream, or have an idea. (I believe another form of god coming through me is when I have ideas or when i am creating, such as writing music, I'm merely a channel for this energy) If you like my human being is a divining rod for the divine.God energy. Imagination is another form of god/energy. Imagination should not be "make-believe", it's "create-believe". I try to stay open to it daily and let it flow through me.

3."a result that cannot be attainable in the third dimension" - what on earth does this mean, and what are the other "dimensions"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory#Description_of_the_duality

All I can say is that the third dimension is not the only one in which we exist. When I meditate I go to sub dimensions, not very nice places to visit, but sometimes necessary (also known as the Lower astral planes, lot's of dead and stuck energy down there, maybe my version of hell) I have read in numerous books about dimensions such as christ consciousness the 5th dimension. A further dimension of Melchizedek at the 6th and 7th, 8th and 9th as sound, light, energy, mass consciousness. I have been to most of these as well in a meditative state and have had a very brief visit to the Akashic Records (collective consciousness)

feynman.physics.lsa.umich.edu/.../ 1984%20-%20The%20Eleven%20Dimensions%20of%20Reality.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antonov_(scientist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records


4. What is "one's alchemy"?

In Buddhist tradition all of life is suffering and our mission is to transcend that suffering. My own personal "alchemy" is transmuting negative energy into positive energy, like turning base metal into gold, only of the soul. Taking really indulgent, easy, stuck energy like hate, jealousy, anger, rage and turning it into the higher refined energies such as love, joy, elation, ecstasy and most importantly, forgiveness. The alchemy of God resides for me in total forgiveness. It's about being the bigger person.


5. How does the tarot mirror what you feel? What is the process behind it?

It's a guide, like the bible is, just another form of energy communicating spirit and an intuitive one at that. It allows you to ask questions and then interpret your own "god" message within it. If it's negative, that';s your interpretation, if it's positive, again totally relative to the observer.

6. Why shamanism?

It's an ancient practise for accessing the other dimensions of consciousness known as the lower, middle and upper worlds. i personally do not communicate with other spirits once in practise, but I do get guidance from my inner self, another form of God to me. It manifests as a white wolf and gives me imagery and symbols and sometimes objects in medtitation for me to know my inner being and receive metaphorical guidance for me to interpret from that. It's basically a lovely safe way for me to access my sub-conscious mind, consciously! Sometimes others in my group interpret what the message or learning could be. I have witnessed a broken tibia being put back into place and healed and the patient walking within an hour without a cast. I've had various minor illnesses leave my body completely after healing with a shaman in Latin America. I've seen a cancerous tumour being removed by hands with no surgery from a womans breast. It's real to me.

7. Faith healing, reiki, energy work, light work, pyschic surgery.

I've studied and read about energy work for 25 years. I've worked with Reiki masters and have become one myself over time. I've seen it all and this you have to see to believe. It started when I was 8 and i witnessed my mother healing a blind person. She conducted several healings in my presence, so it's real for me, her and the people she worked with. Therefore I'm open to it, it's in my reality radar: Actually it's real for all of us, we just didn't ever get the education for developing it. But we all have that "god"/ "christ" power within us. When you leave your comfort zone, you find this energy. In my experience.

http://www.whatthebleep.com/herald3/quandries.shtml

8. New-Age, Mind, body, spirit, Jung, Freud.

For me this is what I call "quadrinity" Like the holy trinity but there is a forth component. The mind is split in two the emotional child and the intellect, so we have our duality of perception:

a) Spiritual self, God consciousness, the good stuff for us. The higher being in all of us. Unlimited human potential, limited by our imaginations... Limited by the flow of God we let in.

b) Intellect, ego, protection, sometimes the bad stuff like pride, indulgent stuff to make us look good.. etc.. Sometimes what serves to protect just keeps us stupid. I gave my intellect a long sabbatical and I created everything I desired during that time. And still do, my intellect is my biggest shadow and saboteur. Alex i know will hate this part! Hurrah! x

c)Emotions, the God energy trying to tell us something in good and bad feelings. When we are happy we are in line with our divine purpose, when we are sad, it's an indication we are out of line with what we want or are wanting to create.

d) The poor old vehicle that carries our infinite spirit through the journey called life on earth! Bless it... I love my wrinkles because i've earned them! :)



Ok I'm waiting for the men in white coats! :) neah nar, neah nar.... If the buggers arrive.... "NO LIKE IT!"

some parting notes and personal wisdom from others.

http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/lynnefranks1.html

http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/heatherbradley.html

http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/fredalanwolf.html

http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/timfreke.html

If you No Like It, Sod IT! This is me....all are welcome x

String theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
String theory is a model of fundamental physics, whose building blocks are one-dimensional extended objects called strings, rather than the zero-dimensional point particles that form the basis for the standard model of particle physics. ...


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JM
10:28pm Jan 16th

I nearly cried

"troyed and moves into, through and out of form in all dimensions. The way i communicate with that energy is prayer and meditation. Prayer is asking the questions, asking for guidance and meditating is listening for the answer. All done with the highest integrity and for the highest good or divine order/God's will."

nailed. Well fuckin done Stella !

AC
Today at 12:43am
Reply

Thanks for taking the time to write all that.

Will have a look over this properly in the morning, but i think the most startling thing is the celebration of something actually being remotely defined. After a brief skim i still don't see the necessary clarity.Not sure why it is so exhausting just to simply relate your beliefs, but hey.

Yet my simple question has yet to have an answer - is what i listed at the beginning an accurate statement of New Age beliefs, and if so, what is the basis for those in the list (minus the verbosity). There's no need to help me try and relate via comparison with Christian beliefs.

p.s. John - "pseudo-proselytizing rants"? There's no preaching in providing precise and speciific empirical reasoning and evidence about why and how something is clearly counterfeit, and its perfectly reasonable to be angry about how seriously quackery is taken.

Am off to ask the fairies in the garden for healing!

JM
Today at 5:22am

I haven't seen any "precise and specific" reasoning of anykind, to prove counterfeitness of otherwise. I see a lot of assholes, and opinions, long may it continue...

If you want to round up very disperate "New Age" and Pagan beliefs like some cowboy and then attack them beneath a cloak of supposed convenience, then fine - but it is intellectually dishonest and ...

"Chaos theory is traditional science, and *not* translated personally (you can't translate gravity personally either), so i can't include that as a belief."

Telling peopple what you can and cannot accept as a belief? Not proselytizing? mmm''kay. The ridicule of this "quakery" is offensively provocative and patronising and not the mark of a genuine attempt to understand because as said three times now, to investgate "Neu Age" or "Paganism" is as meaningless as to examine "christianity" or "Deism" in the round. Shallow...

The terms of reference of this supposed debate seem to be exceedingly shady, and unfairly set if you 'forbid' reference to Christianity or comparison to it. Especially seeing as which belief system spawned which.

Don't behead those fairies Dude - you're sounding like a Muslim! For all your slurs against the mental health of people interested in New Age philosophy or Ancient Paganistic theology, it's revealing which belief structure is responsible for the more deaths, intolerence and suffering this millenia past.

Some Pagans might believe in fairies, but they don't believe in a God that condemns us for eternity based on eating shellfish, and puts dinosaurs in the ground to 'test our faith'. They also got more regard for the sanctity of life then Catholic and Protestant Dogma will ever santimoniously lay claim to.

and now for a musical interlude...

I believe the children are our future...
Give them knives and let them stab away...

ahem - "Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller, rustic") is a term which, from a Western perspective, has come to connote a broad set of spiritual or cultic practices or beliefs of any folk religion, and of historical and contemporary polytheistic religions in particular."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Quote of the day: "we are definitely *not* going to be treating this a broad school of thought, as it's not. What is needed here are SPECIFIC GENERAL principles that make up the "new age" belief system. It is accountable as all other systems are"

John
- you can't kid a kidder!

JM
Today at 5:44am

oh and for those who can't be bothered to read Wikipedia link above

or any other Wikipedia link for that matter

"Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice."

Oooo err misses!

JM
Today at 6:14am

Probably woefully off topic and certainly not addressed to Dear Alex in particular:

I'm a Stoic Discordian Mahayan Buddhist Born Again Christian Jew Bag whom Practices Islamic Tithing and generally believes in Shariah economics. And angels - something good in everyone I see...

I have a dream. No more following, no more fighting, no more hatred. Our beliefs are simply ideas we take too seriously, and being scientifically rational about it, they are 99% guarunteed to be incorrect.

It's time to grow up. Take your 'honour' killings, your clinic bombing 'right to life', your continual submittal to Ba'al Money and fuck off.

Beliefs make hypocrits of us all. We need ideas and faith: not one ubiquitous belief system.

and that's why Al Quaeda, and the British Government alike, are cunts. Trying to make the world into a silent, meek, monothought clique.

and for all the death and pain and hopelessness around, we are going to inherit the Earth, theres evil and virtue in all religions, but in loving kindness the balance will be raised and light will repeal darkness.

and I think that's something, we can all agree on, we make our Gods almost as much as they made us. Life is worship. Not Sunday mornings. Love it, or go back to the drawing board, it's that simple. Good Luck, namaste and Blessings to all... one love, peace love unity and respect and hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari raaaaam.

DM
Today at 8:51am
Reply

I don't know what the higher purpose is, hence my statement about still figuring things out! Currently I just go on feelings. I'm working on my concepts.

SF
Today at 9:24am
Reply

-Hi Debs, it is a complicated one for sure and acknowleding your feelings is a great way to start.

What I've come to realise through various religious and metapysical studies is that we write our higher purpose. The way I have come to know it is that until we realise we write our own script we are just cruising through life on auto-pilot. We are not deliberatly creating our life we are reacting to people, place and things within it. This reactionary stance is what most people of past generations have done and it's a bit like living in the dark, just moving from one reaction to another. What I do now, with the help of accessing my sub-conscious mind is I go into that and see what God or creative energy wants for me. I then use that guidance to move forward with my life. It's a bit of a paradigm shift in ones consciousness, but it's a much better way to live to ones full potential.

-John, I'm loving your views. Keep 'em coming. New-age principles are written by the individual. It is too broad to cover. It's not like the simplistic form of christianity where there is one god and you must behave a certain way and have certain principles etc. New-Age philosophy is much broader and allows the individual the scope to believe what they want to.

-Alex, if fairies work for you mate, no one in this group is going to knock it. Said obviously with tongue in cheek as i know you were being facetious.

AC
Today at 10:10am
Reply

ok let's make this simple to understand so we can be clear. It is proving harder and harder to get a straight answer, which is extremely worrying. Let's re-clarify, once again.

a) precise and specific = here is a scientific reason explaining your superstition and how it works (e.g. ideometer effect on my blog etc). It is not spiritual, or mysterious, is perfectly explainable. That's not preaching.

b) Nothing intellectually dishonest about summarising the underlying concepts of new age belief - dishonesty is being evasive (even unintentionally) that they cannot be grouped, when they can.

c) beliefs are definable and literal, hence why you cannot accept things like gravity...

d) I never "forbid" anyone to say/do anything, but as the conversation is not meant to be a comparison between religions. Doing that is again evasion.

"Specific and general" as in the list i put in there at the beginning - replace "general" with "broad". Literal issue.

I've asked for a statement of belief for accuracy only and to listen, not ridicule. I will of course respond afterwards, but not here.

Why is it *so* hard to explain these beliefs in simple english without long diatribes of waffle and defensiveness?

DM
Today at 10:18am
Reply

Ok I'll make this simple - it's a little difficult for me to describe how I feel exactly so I won't.

JM
Today at 10:21am

Stella - thanks . views towards higher purpose are very much what I wish I could have put across half as eloquently as you just did.

God is the fufillment of all needs, to manifest desire towards anything but the purpose of God obviously brings suffering. This is alchymikal truth - to become gold, Go(love)d.

By money or the pursuit of power instead of the Good of service to others ... truly all great religious leaders, have loved all gods, for all is in the all in the unity of this universe and beyond. People are Gods, and I believe in all Seven or so billion of the bastards!

God takes no prisioners and burns no souls. Freedom is given and service is expected. you reap the rewards and failures sure, but it never ends until you are one again in the magus mundae of this world back as a part of God from whence you came, this is hell - separation from God. But Dammit I'm in love with this Planet and I'm glad to be reasonably free and able to try in my lameass way some help to others. This level of happiness is possible for everyone - and would be more prevalent . Hell might be other people, but reflecting back is the fact we all are hell and we're in it together. So we might as well have a drink and a smoke and fucking enjoy it.

Just cause my God has no name, doesn't mean, he doesn't offer fantastic luminescence in my life.

I'm quite open religiously, but I do dislike the hangover of cromwellian calvinist thinking stinking up public law and government for everyone. This aborted fetus of Christianity's true message ridicules any intellect. Pseudo or otherwise. I'm talking temperence movements, Fred Phelps et al.

John
-you can be polytheistic and deist/monotheistic at the same time. It pisses people off. Poetry.

AC
Today at 10:23am
Reply

OK going to start a thread on textual esctasy for this as i've been talking with other people too - 18 in total now. Will post the link in a bit once its up.

JM
Today at 10:25am

Might as well do a copypasta... nice one Alex

"Why is it *so* hard to explain these beliefs in simple english without long diatribes of waffle and defensiveness?"

Ever read the Bible?

SF
Today at 10:52am
Reply

hehe x

SF
Today at 10:55am
Reply

Alex it's hard because it's deeply personal and self evolved. Rather than being taught what to believe, we've found out for ourselves what are own personal truths are. You can't really be concise about it in my view.

CG
Today at 11:23am
Reply

I tried to stay out of this because this discussion appears futile to me, it's like trying to "convert" a Muslim to Judism. However, no one is trying to convert anyone here, but the ones who accept new age/ paganism/ mysticism are trying to explain, which is just as hard, as explaining Christianity, i.e. the mother (or father) of Protestant church (that includes English church) is Catholicism, as it is due mostly to Henry the 8ths inability to have a sons and being a right twat and Martin Luther (being one of those that came up with the Protestant idea, Lutheron church) being disappointed with Catholicism. The mother (or father) of Catholic church is Judism, as Jesus was Jewish and the old Testament is used by Jews and Christians alike.

As reply to your trolling post, my IQ is 145 (taken in English and not my mother tongue language Lithuanian).

Now here are my answers to your questions.

Teleology - disagree - whether coincidences have a spiritual meaning is for individuals to decide, it's superstition that is used in every religion (Christianity included).


Spiritual versus scientific knowledge - disagree -most witches (these are the only people I can talk about being a witch myself, I know nothing about new age stuff) are very well educated in science and study chemistry, physics and other sciences at their spare time. Also here I have to point out that more Christians are against new findings of scientists about evolution than there are pagans. Religion was just a part of evolution, human beings asking where they came from etc. The man created a god by it's own image and not the other way round, as human mind is too basic and simple to simply accept something they don't really know or understand, not knowing something usually causes fear and that is what humans have been avoiding for century by creating God.
The divine feminine was imported into Christianity through back door with Mary - the mother of God, however even though she's a divine mother she is a very small figure in the whole the father the son and the holly ghost business, and almost non-existant in Protestant church.
Christians - believe in Angels, and many pagans believe in personal guides I believe in my totem animal, because I met it.
Physics - the explanation of energy explains a lot, you don't need yo interpret anything at all :
Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed. Human being is a form of energy too.


Human potential - agree but not in every sense of the word, any practise can help human achieve it's potential as much as prayer, all one needs is focus and direction, and whatever helps is good. It is simply connection to super-conscious.
Everyone has potential in any field.

Reincarnation - I was a great disbeliever until i experienced something I can not explain, i.e. understanding Portuguese and having memories that are not mine, at the time I did not speak or understand Spanish (that would make understanding Portuguese easier), and even though I speak a few languages it doesn't mean I'm a genius and can understand foreign language without learning it. That turned me into a believer and not the other way round.

Fairies - there is a religion called faery or fairy wicca they believe in fairies, there are many branches of wicca that believe in completely different things, it all depends on the path they follow.

Any tool that helps meditation should be used whether it's a broom, a sock or a crystal, it's just what is in person's mind.

And my personal belief system is:
I believe in polarity, as positive and negative exists everywhere in science, therefor I believe it. I also believe that positive and negative forces (not in the sense of good and bad, but rather a pure + and - ) are the creative forces. I believe that we all create our own god how we want to see it, because our little minds are too narrow just to accept that we don't understand.
I believe in wiccan rede:
An' it harm none, do what thou wilt.
But I dislike anything related to A. Crowley.
I do not worship anything, be it a God or Goddess, a celebrity or one of natural forces. I respect every living being and every natural force.
I believe that science will be able to explain more in the future.

As for future telling, when the Bible tells that there will be an end of the world and everyone will die and go to either heaven or hell, people believe it, yet when someone tells you that you are going to end up living in Spain even you intend to live in France it's fraud. Work it out.
People don't need rules, we need freedom, most of the religions plant fear into people, and promise them heaven if they are good worshippers.
Witchcraft does not promise heaven or hell because we don't know if there is such thing.
Paganism is the oldest religion in the world, before we were Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians and so on, we were pagans one way or the other and most of the pagans were converted by force. Lithuania being the last country in Europe to be converted to Christianity, had a lot of pagan traditions converted to Christian traditions. Therefor, Christianity simply renamed things to keep it simple... There are many examples that I can list if you require. And don't get me started about Lithuanian conversion to Christianity as I will write whole bloody book. So here it is plain and simple without avoiding anything. I don't really care what you think, because it's you and not me Alex. My husband has seen a real gangrene (as declared by doctors) healed, I have seen my husbands father who has been dead for almost 40 years and who's picture I never saw, I have seen my husbands mother who's picture I never saw either. I believe what I see, I did not create it with my mind, because I don't need dead people in my life, I have plenty to deal with in the alive ones.

P.S. Even many witches/pagans/new agers will disagree with what I said but this is how I see it plain and simple and please forgive me if I made any mistakes explaining myself, my English is good, but most of the stuff I learned about religion was in Lithuanian therefor wording may not be perfect.

AC
Today at 1:18pm
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John - can't get onto your site as its being too slow? Am in an Internet cafe in Canterbury, bizarrely opposite a wicca cafe. I think thr fairies are conspiring to stop me.

SF
Today at 1:20pm
Reply

hahahahaha! You know you are going to be hunted down by the "wee folk" now until the end of your days!

AC
Today at 1:30pm
Reply

Ok will copy this to TE when i can get it to respond. Here's my thoughts on reading this stuff that's coming through.

-----------------------

The issue with relativism is that it is an endless loop. It is everything, and is nothing, as Orwellian-speak is. If you said to a mystic that "everything and nothing" is utterly meaningless, the reply would be "it depends on what you mean by 'meaning', as everyone experiences it differently". So it sidesteps the point very elegantly and avoids the direct question. Trying to get anything defined is virtually impossible but nothing has a concrete definition - John is making his point by being literal, yet the nature of the belief that everything is relative means that being literal is futile. Which one is it?

1. God is energy, of which the properties of are described as the energy in physics. So you pray to energy? How do you address energy in a prayer? is God an entity or is it "god-energy"? It would be helpful if you could describe your scientific understanding of "energy" in physics (briefly - it can be done in 5 lines).If God is energy and a spiritual force manifesting in physical form, why can it not be measured, observed or validated by scientists? Is God in the metal that makes up the parts of a gun or a bullet that kills someone in a war, or in a napalm explosion? If God is in everything, is he/she/it in evil too?

2. So truth is relative, but to recognise it, it must resonate with a feeling (no idea what this means)? Is this what we would typically call a "moment of revelation"? If i say "it is currently daytime in the GMT timezone, and when the sun goes down it will be night" - is that truth absolute, or is it relative and different for everyone in the GMT timezone? I am currently typing - is this truth, or is it relative? If so, how relative? Would someone else interpret my typing and posture as a higher ape?

3. Which part of string theory are you referring to, as this principle has been discarded by the scientific community? What are these dimensions/astral planes and can they only be accessed via a particular mental state?

4. So "alchemy" not in terms of its literal medieval meaning, but conceptual to describe the process of manipulating "energy" (i.e. God)? God has alchemy too?

5. How does tarot work - where does the energy start, flow and end, and how do the cards appear in the order they do, and how are they chosen?

6.what are these lower, middle and upper worlds? In this process of creating images in your mind, has there been any ingesting of hallucenogens? (serious question as shamanism has been documented to involve the use of DMT)

7. How does this healing work? What is the source of this healing energy (God-energy?), and what happens inside the body during this healing and divination? Have any of these healings (generally speaking, not your personal experiences) been witnessed and recorded by professional medical/scientific personnel? How was the illness diagnosed in the first place? Does homeopathy work?

8. What is the basis of the splitting of the mind into 2 components - is this a psychological or spiritual view, and what is the basis? What about the evolutionary process of emotion and how is serves animals? How do we "write our higher purpose" (this doesn't appear to have any apparent meaning)?

and a bonus:

How much of New Age belief systems are a reaction/rebellion to organised religion, institutions and the establishment, as clearly witnessed in this thread?
If everything is relative in New age belief, is there such a thing as "false", "wrong", "erroneous" or "final"?

TEST 1
If i put 100 mediums/psychics together in a line and challenged them to divine/dowse the location of Madeleine McCann, surely more than 60% would come up with the same answer that would be correct? If not, why not?

TEST 2
"if fairies work for you mate, no one in this group is going to knock it", and "i believe it my totem animal, because i met it". OK, if it works for me and i've seen it, it's all OK. so hypothetically here i'm going to pick a coffee mug up and pray to it for healing. If it works for me, should i expect healing, and will you accept my belief that the mug is divine and offers me guidance? Kelly says "technically that can work if you believe in it enough" (placebo).

Still need the questions about evolution, existence, human nature, schizophrenia, identifying fraudsters, free will etc.

If you think this is about "conversion", you are foolish, as it is not (this has been said countless times in this thread, as has the point that it's not personal, it's about beliefs which are not). I have to admit i'm growing a little tired of having to explain again and again that i'm not comparing to Christianity and having to listen to people attack my faith when i haven't mentioned it, when i'm talking purely science and asking for the answers you've found. If you don't have the answer, just say so like Debs has. There's no need to evade it by insulting organised religion as a diversionary tactic of discussing the problem rather than the solution - that's a little transparent.

The question is what *you* believe, not why you don't like religion.

For the purposes of this discussion, consider me asking as a scientist and a thinker.

Carra - thanks for going into that detail as its a lot clearer, but still lacks any framework at all and doesn't describe the big picture of how this all comes together.

Please, please let's leave out Christianity - we can get into that discussion in full and massive detail in a separate one after this. Just a matter of focus, that's all.

DM
Today at 1:36pm
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I believe that we are responsible for our own paths in life and that we cannot simply blame a diety when life goes wrong. Also we cannot just live our life by someone elses rules. Society has cobbled together a systemo f justice based on a lot of religious ideals - a lot of them are very good - but people are far too quick to blame religion when their life doesn't work.

I believe in spirits guides and energies and whilst I totally believe in tarot, ouiji and other communication/guidance methods - I think that they shoudl be used for guidance only, just like everyone other belief structure/religion.

We didn't just happen to exist, we are here for a reason - but right now I don't know what or who wants us here.

That's my take, I don't know if there's anything useful in that or maybe I've just bleated a load of useless ramblings.

DM
Today at 1:37pm
Reply

Make that *deity*. I am pretending to be headhunting Senior Technical Managers whilst writing this...

CG
Today at 2:10pm
Reply

Carra - thanks for going into that detail as its a lot clearer, but still lacks any framework at all and doesn't describe the big picture of how this all comes together.

I answered your initial questions as you asked, I did not avoid or twist anything, I also clearly stated depending on the person's chosen path the framework will depend. If you want to know about coven work, read Alexandrian or Gardnerian books of shadows (BTW no matter what people say I think Gerald Gardner was just a little pervert anyway). I explained my framework, as I am solitary witch meaning that I work and study alone, every witch's framework is different because unlike any other religion we do not have a manual that tells us what to do, we can read a lot of good and a lot of crap literature to get an idea, but at the end of the day we choose what we want and what we don't. Witchcraft is about freedom, we do not have religious leaders, even in covens they choose the leader democratically and not hierarchycally I said this conversation is futile as every person who is for example a witch does things differently thus creating a different framework, while some rely on legends and mystics and others on science.
It all comes together when you balance yourself, the same as in any prayer or meditation.

As I mentioned before I work on the scientific side of this, meaning my religious workings do not involve dancing naked around the time of full moon or sacrificing, I cast spells that are simple and basic and could be called stating goals, I meditate, I study how much I can influence things with my own energy, I do not play with the dead, because they are dead and should be left n peace.

Alchemy - in my opinion was from the beginning, about self and not about finding the philosopher's stone that will turn anything into gold, it is a simple allegory philosopher's stone is very likely our own mind, with which we can achieve anything, we can not literally turn metal into gold but if we use our brain and common sense we can sell it and earn gold. The gold itself in these kind of things is rarely a precious metal the same as Golden Fleece in the Greek story was not literally made out of gold.

This is discussion is not going to achieve anything, unless someone is going to sit down and write a book instructing witches what to do (and there are some already), creating a complete chaos as witchcraft is not about rules and dogma , but contrary about freedom of choice. This discussion would never even break out between witches because we have learned to be tolerant of our differences, we do not have to explain ourselves, because as long as we know what we do and are honest with ourselves it's totally fine.

SF
Today at 2:32pm
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Mr. Emoto conducted a scientific study projecting thought into water and then freezing the water to see what kind of crystals would form as a result of the projected emotion, feeling, word or intention. He was looking for a pattern. Quite amazing when you see the results. Worth scrolling down to see how hate, love, fear, hitler etc... look when they form water crystals.

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm


Everything vibrates and can be measured in hertz. The average healthy body vibrates at 45 hertz, metal and wood at around 15-20 hertz. This is the speed at which the chosen matter vibrates with the sub atomic particles all moving in a sea of energy! Perhaps this will give you a clue. Even after an award winning documentary like this with quantum physicists, new-age guru's, atlantean channelers etc... there is still a big quesiton mark over the whole thing.

see here for the movie.

www.whatthebleep.com

Alex I really don't think it's possible to flush all this stuff out and it make sense from all our individual perspectives. It's as big as asking us all to tell our life stories in one go in detail! Rip the movie and see how they present it. It's quite mind boggling and I slept for 2 days after watching it!

Answer to question 6. Some shamans use medicine (ayahuasca, peyote and other DMT plants) to access other worlds, but it's not necessary. I can access them just by meditating and listening to a shamanic drum and the sound vibration of the drum slows down my brain cycles to theta and delta wave patterns and when the brain cycles are slowed down to that level one can access other dimensions.

As for test 2, It really is that simple, if you really, really believe that coffee cup is the divine god for you, then great, because it's the belief, not the deity that creates your life. Try it as an experiment and see what happens.


Masaru Emoto: Messages from Water
http://www.life-enthusiast.com...
Water has a very important message for us. Water is telling us to take a much deeper look at our selves. When we do look at our selves through the mirror of water, the message becomes amazingly, crystal, clear. ...


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SF
Today at 4:46pm
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I stumbled across an interview between Deepak Chopra, spiritual guru, New-Age mystic and author talking to Dr. Fred Alan Wolf, a physicist, writer, and lecturer who earned his Ph.D. in theoretical physics at UCLA in 1963.

The Q&A is rather interesting and kind of explains why it's so difficult to carry on this debate in search for scientific proof and answers.

Deepak Chopra:

What is the soul from a quantum physics point of view?

FRED ALAN WOLF:

This is really a very old question, if we leave off the quantum physics part. It started off a great debate thousands of years ago in ancient Greece between the followers of Plato and his student, Aristotle. In brief the soul is an agent of reality. Plato believed that the physical senses were always going to cloud our perception of the universe. According to Plato, the mere fact that we are embodied makes our perceptions somewhat distorted, somewhat inaccurate, somewhat of an illusion. While working at the level of the body and the senses, Plato thought that we could never quite experience things as they are “in reality.” He taught there was a more perfect, nonmaterial realm of existence. In contrast, Aristotle taught there is no world outside of our senses.

Nowadays, scientists have invented sophisticated scientific instruments such as microscopes and telescopes to extend the power of our senses, but the majority of scientists still share Aristotle’s basic worldview.

I believe that the findings of quantum physics increasingly support Plato. There is evidence that suggests the existence of a non-material, non-physical universe that has a reality even though it may not as yet be clearly perceptible to our senses and scientific instrumentation. When we consider out-of-body experiences, shamanic journeys and lucid dream states, though they cannot be replicated in the true scientific sense, they also point to the existence of non-material dimensions of reality. Now most of us were not trained to look for and experience our souls. We’ve been more or less trained to look for things that can be grasped—things that are physical and solid. But the soul is not tangible, physical or solid. You cannot just reach out and touch the soul. Yet, the soul as an animating principle in the universe is ultimately more important than anything that is physical or tangible.

SF
Today at 5:12pm
Reply

Q. The question then arises, “How is it that more people do not directly experience the presence of their souls?” They may read about the soul, they may believe in the soul, but if the soul is a reality, why do they feel a sense of soul loss, an absence of the soul in their lives?

FRED ALAN WOLF. The answer may be found in the nature of the soul itself. The soul is alive and vibrant yet experienced subjectively. I go into more detail about this in my book Mind into Matter. The world that we see with our everyday eyes—through the filter of our senses—is derived from a more “objective” world. The “out there” objective world and the subjectively experienced “soul world” are in conflict with each other. This corresponds to what spiritual teachers have been saying about what happens when living spirit descends into objective matter—there’s a fight. So if we become too involved with the objective, external processes of life, we tend to lose touch with perception from the level of our soul. It’s when we go within into an internal quietness, as in meditation, we can begin to perceive something which is deeper and more meaningful than just the objective “out there-ness.” So it’s really important for those of us who have lost touch with our souls to spend some quiet time—not in thinking, not in going over the day’s list of everything that has to be done—but in being with yourself in ways that allow a deeper inner reality to bubble up from within your consciousness.

SF
Today at 5:17pm
Reply

You can read the rest of this very interesting interview here:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~wolfpapers/myarticles/Q&A%20for%20Deepak.pdf
pw1.netcom.com
http://pw1.netcom.com/~wolfpapers/myarticles/Q&A%2...


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AC
Today at 8:50pm
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Right ok this is really going to have to be one of the last times i ask as a simple answer to a simple question because it is proving beyond everyone here.

Carra - you did answer some of them (most appropriate answers yet) but i asked for simple answer statements rather than a whole load of stuff about why you don't like Christianity (i thought everyone was allowed their own beliefs?) .Dicussion is *never* meaningless, as someone who sees meaning in everything should know.

- "I believe God is energy" is a belief.
- adding "because all matter vibrates" is a basis for it.
- Therefore "i believe God is energy because all matter vibrates" is a statement of belief, as the question stated.

"I believe in spirits guides and energies and whilst I totally believe in tarot, ouiji and other communication/guidance methods" is 50% there.
Adding "because.....[reason]" is a statement of belief and makes it 100%.

"I believe in my totem animal because i have seen it" is a statement of belief.
"I believe in practicing fairy magic healing because fairies live at the bottom of the garden and can heal people through conducting the universe's energy" is a statement of belief.

"Your coffee cup can be God because its ok for you to believe in anything you want" is a statement of belief.

So how about something like this, for general principles of new age:

1. I believe ..... because.....
2. I believe ..... because.....
3. I believe ..... because.....
4. I believe ..... because.....
5. I believe ..... because.....
6. I believe ..... because.....
7. I believe ..... because.....
8. I believe ..... because.....
9. I believe ..... because.....
10. I believe ..... because.....

Your life story and experiences are not needed, its cool.
The individual practices of different people or groups are irrelevant.
"It all comes together when you balance yourself" is a meaningless statement.

A "Framework" of beliefs is a general overview of the principles that govern new age beliefs - autonomy, relativism, energy, spirits, forces etc. Think bigger picture than what happens in individual covens.

"Perhaps this will give you a clue"? I'm enquiring as to the extent of your scientific knowledge, as you will see my own soon.

P.s. Deepak Chopra's views and the subsequent ridicule are the basis for the wonderfully sarcastic put-down in the scientific community "well it must be quantum" for when something is improbable/silly or doesn't add up (google for it).

JM
Today at 9:02pm

I'll trade this for the same Re Christianity. Let's set a 2000 year persecution a historical precedent and keep up the quality. Not the hanging, burning, ducking, stocks, beating to death or simple ostracism or suchlike quality.

If Mr. Black wants i's apologies for slavery. I want Pope Ratburger to apologise to Witches the world over. Tout Three Peace Sweet.

Paganism versus Christianity - Fight Night!

1. I believe ..... because.....
2. I believe ..... because.....
3. I believe ..... because.....
4. I believe ..... because.....
5. I believe ..... because.....
6. I believe ..... because.....
7. I believe ..... because.....
8. I believe ..... because.....
9. I believe ..... because.....
10. I believe ..... because.....

John
- You show me Yours, I'll show you mine, said the vicar to the choirboy.

AC
Today at 9:05pm
Reply

Funnily enough Kel and i were at a pub in Canterbury today that had an old medieval ducking stool for witches, and i got photos. Was heard to be murmurring "they had the right idea back then" of course.

John, please for goodness sake stop evading the question of what these beliefs are by trying to divert the focus to christianity, Its the next convo, not this one. Its going to look like you have to no idea or aren't brave enough to stand up for it.

AC
Today at 9:18pm
Reply

One last quick thing before we open this up to the TE forums (i'll chop it up what has come out of this and try to reproduce it faithfully - feel free to point out if a change needs to be made anywhere).

What i'd like as a final thing is to say thanks for everyone for taking the time to talk to me about this stuff, and casting some light on it. I know it's hard to summarise but i think i've got it.

Generally speaking, New Age beliefs involve:
-----------------------------
Constructing your own spirituality from diverse but standardised beliefs/parts, as well as forming mental imagery and concepts (inc. sequences of them), a lot of the time that are typically not available to normal senses; that those visualised images can be unlimited as long as they help the person and fulfil a psychological need, and sometimes quite extravagant? And as much as it pains me, those beliefs trascend science and reason even if we see evidence and reasoning in the physical world (earthly plane, whatever)?

Would you agree with that statement? Or am i still clueless?

If you agree with those statements (ie. i've got the gist of it), could you just say yes/no or say "80% agree" or whatever. I want to be accurate.

JM
Today at 9:51pm

Constructing your own spirituality from diverse but standardised beliefs/parts, as well as forming mental imagery and concepts (inc. sequences of them), a lot of the time that are typically not available to normal senses; that those visualised images can be unlimited as long as they help the person and fulfil a psychological need, and sometimes quite extravagant? And as much as it pains me, those beliefs trascend science and reason even if we see evidence and reasoning in the physical world (earthly plane, whatever)?

That's part of it and more besides to follow. We all have a psychological need to be close to God, and the wiccans and pagans I have met in the distant and recent past have underlined that these are some of the happiest, most positive and prouctive people I've encountered. They are as close to God as any Pope.